Posts by Northern Star

21

I'd report THAT to the police, but not THIS...

by Northern Star in

i am new to the boards, so a little background info may be a good idea?

also, i'm not quite sure which sub-forum to post this to....

i have a typical religious background for my country; grew up with lutheran christianity (which was our state religion up until 2012; we now have a secular constitution).

Northern Star

freddo

Thanks for your reply!

here in the UK I have never come across any JW that would not go to the police for a witnessed murder.

I am very happy to hear that. As I have stated elsewhere in this thread, I hope it's a misunderstanding on part of the JW couple I'm engaged with, but I kind-of find it difficult to believe as they've been member for so long. I hope, anyway!

I've pointed out some glaringly false prophecies, like the world ending (Armageddon) several times (it didn't, you may have noticed!), the Watchtower's involvement with the UN, the "generation of 1914", and a few other things (I'll be posting more about this later). The answer I always get is: "Yes, human beings have made mistakes, but Jehovah doesn't. The Truth is being revealed to us all the time, little by little, like a light shining brighter day by day".

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LisaRose

I would have reported a murder to the police, even as indoctrinated JW. [...] But I would also have reported child abuse also, so maybe I am not an average JW.

That is definitely good to hear, Lisa. I am happy to learn that not reporting a murder is "standard", even though that is what I was told by this specific couple. The reasoning I was given was that the murderer should follow his own conscience, but that the congregation (or rather the elders, I suppose), would encourage the person to turn himself in. But they would not report him if he chose not to do it himself, is what I was told.

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Finkelstein

Yes, I can imagine that protecting "Jehovah's earthly organization" would count heavily. I see in many of our conversations that it is important to them to present the organization as "clean and pure".

I watched/listened to the enitre eight-day debacle in Australia, and figured there would be some changes made with regard to reporting child abuse. Very sad that only mandatory (by the law) reporting is encouraged! And the two-witness rule is - obviously - ridiculous in cases of child sexual abuse. Who in their right mind would sexually assault a child with two witnesses wathing?!?

21

I'd report THAT to the police, but not THIS...

by Northern Star in

i am new to the boards, so a little background info may be a good idea?

also, i'm not quite sure which sub-forum to post this to....

i have a typical religious background for my country; grew up with lutheran christianity (which was our state religion up until 2012; we now have a secular constitution).

Northern Star

The Searcher

A J.W.'s personal thoughts are neither here nor there - telephone the Branch Office/search the WT CD ROM, and get the official answers to your questions, then confront your study conductors with the real facts.

That's just the thing... What I see when I ask questions is fear. I will normally not get an answer until the next week, giving them time - I suppose - to look things up. There's nothing wrong with looking things up, of course, but it's sad to see how fearful they are of answering something when they do not have the correct WT response handy.

I see this when I ask questions pertaining to the Bible, too (the Watchtower-Bible, which is something quite different than just the Bible, in my experince).

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NeverKnew

I have one recommendation: SOLIDIFY A RELATIONSHIP or they'll bolt - especially if they can control whether the meeting happens or not as you have to expect them at YOUR house.

Actually, all of the meetings (apart from the first two or three) have been at their house. They pick me up and drive me back home, too. I do however do what you're suggesting; I offer to bring food every now and again, and I've helped them with various computer problems and such. But I cannot help but feel that they would drop me like a hot potatoe if they think I'm too interested in things about their organization that are not what they are trained for.

I'm glad to learn I'm not the only one doing what I'm doing. If you do not mind, it would perhaps be a good experience to "compare notes" every now and again? Just a thought, and you're absolutely not obligated to saying yes!

21

I'd report THAT to the police, but not THIS...

by Northern Star in

i am new to the boards, so a little background info may be a good idea?

also, i'm not quite sure which sub-forum to post this to....

i have a typical religious background for my country; grew up with lutheran christianity (which was our state religion up until 2012; we now have a secular constitution).

Northern Star

TheWonderofYou

Althought the JW couple I’m in contact with never mentioned the internal Judicial Committee, I was aware of its existense. In this specific instance, I asked them about a hypotheical case in where they, with their own eyes, saw their JW son-in-law murder their JW daughter.

Self-interested and self-concentrated is the impression I have as well, in addition to inhumane and totally out of sync with normal human reaction.

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Alive!

when you bought up the child abuse issues and the ARC etc at your 'discussion' meeting - the JWs leading the study would have moved into full protection mode with an 'interested' individual - they would have told you what any decent human being would expect

That is the impression I had, too. Not initially, when they said they’d report ANY crime (which I found strange, as they quite obviously did NOT do so in Australia), but when we later discussed the hypothetical case of them witnessing a murder, I certainly thought to myself that this may be a case of “saying what someone wants to hear”, rather than telling the truth.

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Bugbear

Thank you for the welcome.

I’m sorry to learn that you have a family member still in the cult (I agree with you that “cult” is a good description).

The husband of the couple I’m in contact with has signed up for what I believe is called “Pioneer”(?). He’s supposed to do 70 hours a month. I gather the 20 or so hours a month that I’m “contributing” beats going door-to-door.

This couple probably became JWs at about the same time you did. They got babtized in the early 70s, and have been devout members ever since.

I’ve tried talking to them about some of the subjects you’re mentioning; the flood, how long humans have existed on earth and so on. I feel like I’m talking to a wall (and banging my head against said wall, too). It’s quite frustrating, yet also interesting to see what apologetics they come up with.

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Saintbertholdt

Did they give any sort of rationale for their conclusions because they're not just experiencing cognitive dissonance, they're experiencing cognitive disintegration.

Not in so many words, really. The two-witness-rule was mentioned, but I got the impression that the main thing for them was that the murderer should do what his concience told him to do, whether that meant reporting himself to the police or not. The tax-question is a good one, I will have to ask them about that. Thanks!

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LoveUniHateExams

Cute username J I loved exams… finally got to write something about subjects I was (still am) passionate about.

I was surprised, too, I must admit. Yes, I am familiar with the two-witness-rule. The couple I’m talking to also has mentioned it, albeit just in passing. I haven’t looked deep enough into things to know whether not reporting is a misunderstanding on their part. I certainly hope they would report!

21

I'd report THAT to the police, but not THIS...

by Northern Star in

i am new to the boards, so a little background info may be a good idea?

also, i'm not quite sure which sub-forum to post this to....

i have a typical religious background for my country; grew up with lutheran christianity (which was our state religion up until 2012; we now have a secular constitution).

Northern Star

Hi.

I am new to the boards, so a little background info may be a good idea? Also, I'm not quite sure which sub-forum to post this to...

I am a non-believer. I have a typical religious background for my country; grew up with Lutheran Christianity (which was our state religion up until 2012; we now have a secular constitution). My involvement with religion was also quite typical for my country; you may go to Sunday school as kid, up until the age of about 10, and after that religion only lingers in the background, unless you actively seek it out One would typically only go to church for weddings or funerals. In my immediate family I had/have (some have died) Lutheran priests, so I guess our family was a bit more involved than most, but religion still has not been a big part of my life.

Religion has however been an interest of mine for a number of years, so much so that I have a university degree in what most English speakers would recognize as “religious studies”. This basically means that I have knowledge on an introductory level of most main world religions. Once I got passed the introductory courses, my main focus has been older Judaism, and the religion(s) of ancient Mesopotamia – but I’ve also taken an interest in American Evangelicals, specifically the Young Earth Creationists.

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Some months ago, a (married) JW couple knocked on my door. I explained my background, and agreed to “study” with them, making it clear that my interest would be academic, not “spiritual”. I also made it clear that I would be looking up information about their organization outside of what they would be telling me.

Since them I’ve met with them once a week, for a 4-5 hour “study” – or as they call it, a “discussion”.

When I initially sat down to write this post, I was going to lump everything I’ve observed into this one post, but I think perhaps I will split it into several topics, as I do not know what/how many feedback I will receive.

So, here goes the first one:

I discussed with this JW couple the hearing in Australia, on the handling of child sexual abuse. I listened/watched the entire 8-day hearing twice, and of course had some questions afterwards. I was told that in the congregation that this particular couple belongs to, they would ALWAYS report suspected sexual abuse to the police. Always, no exceptions. In fact, ANY crime would be reported to the police, they assured me.

About two weeks later, we were discussing murder. I was told that they would NOT report a murder to the police, even if they witnessed it themselves. The rational, as I understood it, was that the murderer should (and would) be encouraged to go to the police, but that if the murderer himself would not talk to the police, they would not pursue the matter further.

You may understand my confusion… they will ALWAYS report crimes to the police, but they will not report a murder…? I do not understand the logic behind that. Something clearly does not add up. “Cognitive dissonance” came to mind…

I would very much appreciate any thoughts, comments, and feedback on this. Thanks in advance!

61

Good books to read?

by thedepressedsoul in

i read crisis on the conscience and i am about to start, "who wrote the bible?

does anyone have a list or great books to read for anyone searching for the real truth?

i've only ever seen the world through a jw lens and i am excited to see what other view points are out there!

Northern Star

Listen to the free lectures of Christine Hayes from Yale. She is very professional and engaging. You will have a better understanding of the Bible without feeling that faith is being attacked.
http://oyc.yale.edu/religious-studies/rlst-145

That is an excellent course, indeed!

61

Good books to read?

by thedepressedsoul in

i read crisis on the conscience and i am about to start, "who wrote the bible?

does anyone have a list or great books to read for anyone searching for the real truth?

i've only ever seen the world through a jw lens and i am excited to see what other view points are out there!

Northern Star

Bart Ehrman's The New Testament: A Historical Introduction to the Early Christian Writings is an excellent read,

Two works by Mark S. Smith (both outstandingly well researched, with a gold mine of footnotes and references):

1. The Origins of Biblical Monotheism: Israel's Polytheistic Background and the Ugaritic Texts

2. The Early History of God: Yahweh and the Other Deities in Ancient Israel

Daniel Dennett: Breaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon

Christopher Hitchens: God is not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything